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Comments
however, if you are a member of this forum you will get shot - figuratively speaking :bigsmile:
on that note, welcome, and yes, a wise move to join as there is a lot of good info on the way building practice should be going, and hopefully will.
One other thing, are EPC's compulsory now or not? I'm finding it difficult to find out as I'm not sure if what I am reading about EPC's is up-to-date or whether it was from before they were made non-compulsory.
I would like to know about non-domestic EPC's as well as domestic.
Thanks
only joking. No prospective tenant has ever taken the blindest bit of notice of the EPC. However, it perhaps makes me and landlords a bit more conscious of the fact that our old housing stock is not as thermally efficient as it might be.
Like I said, I wasn't sure if what I had been reading was current...but now I know! :)
(Yes I know its energy performance.... I mean is it a glorified SAP or what?)
J
A few critical questions in a reduced version of the SAP software [RdSAP] Definitely NOT a glorified version of SAP [less data input]
Basically
1.Year of Construction
2. Wall type [stone, cavity etc][u-values assumed by age]
3. Roof type, floor type diito point 2
4. Boiler details and controls
5. Allowances for Solar and PV [but no other renewables]
6. No of low energy lights
oh I forgot form [semi bungalow etc]
J
Incidentally, I've heard that the reason u-values are closed to changes is due to the danger of assessors getting it drastically wrong.
No offence intended to any DEA's here.
J
List of approved RdSAP software and providers here http://projects.bre.co.uk/sap2005/pdf/RdSAP2005_9-80_software.pdf
If you manage to get a pukka copy let me know where from please
BRE developed RDSAP by defining pre-set asumptions for houses of a certian age, construction type and format (flat semi detached etc). The data collected is about 50 items, including size measurements, that are then put into a piece of software. A SAP calculation is done with the missing items for a full assessment worked out using defined assumptions from the actual data inputs. I've spoken to some of the software developers and the calculation done behind the scenes is a full SAP calcualtion.
BRE's target was to get 95% of houses within 5% of what a full SAP assessment would come up with, but take less than an hour on site and a bit more back at the office to get the assessment done.
For a look at the data input's required take a look at Table S19 of the SAP Appendix S13 to get an idea...
http://projects.bre.co.uk/sap2005/ - page 109 onwards. It also shows how the assumptions are made up. Some of them get a bit mathematical Like air infiltration rates and cold bridges!
U Values can't be entered as they're not quick to establish if you aren't designing from from scratch and have to investigate by drilling holes (can you imagine what Mr Noggins would say if you turned up with your hammer drill to do an assessment!). U values might be possible in future - if the owner requests them - but for most houses the assumed values are close enough. It will take a while to establish an assessment method for existing houses - how would you classify a breeze block for example. Assessors will need training to in how to identify the difference between light weight concrete, heavy weight, aerated clinker blocks - just by looking at the dust from the drill? And is that cavity fill kingspan or Celotox? With a resisitivty of what exactly?
The reason the software isn't available is the gov are worried about the possibility of unapproved "pretend" EPC being knocked off, at next to nothing prices. Although you can check the authenticity by going to www.epcregister.com not everyone knows that! Right now they are more concerned with making sure looking at the EPC becomes part of the buying process.
PS One of the big boons for consulation was getting floor construction added at the back end of last year - although it makes little difference (and was therefore "assumed" by the age) can you imagine the home owners face when their EPC came back saying "Suspended timber - assumed" when actually it's concrete. Not likely to inspire confidence! Even Mrs Noggins can tell the difference.
Soap box education over ;-)
And I'm not even a DEA (although I did do the training!). Unfortunately I found that "the marketplace" doesn't need skilled people interested in the subject - but people who can measure and enter the data correctly. Although that is set to change (nudge wink - I have a future post being prepared).
Simon.
It's listed grade 2* and earliest part is 16c. So it's not easy to make changes.
Twenty two years ago when it was grade 2 I improved it. I insulated all external walls on the inside, all floors and all roofs.
I did the wall insulation by bonding insulation to the wall so that it mirrored the original wall surface and did not use any beads on corners so you can't tell it's been insulated. Some of the ceilings follow the roof pitch and all are insulated. There's huge thermal mass in the internal walls. Heating is mostly by wood stove and natural convection, we have two small rads on for part of the day. An oil boiler does hot water and central heating. We have low energy bulbs in the rooms we use. There are six bedrooms, three bathrooms and two kitchens.
Point of all this. According to the assesor it's an F with the potential to be and E. No account taken of insulation which cannot be seen so only the wool in the loft counts. Heating bill apparently enormous but we live here and it's small. We burn 5 tons of wood a year and hardly any oil but the EPC says oil is our primary heating so we need £3500 of oil a year. The lack of a roomstat was noted, but in a house this size where would you put it! Only two of us live here now so we only heat and light the rooms we use and the best way to find out how much this costs is to look at utility bills.
The assesor told me he could only include what he could verify and as I have no certificates he ignored all the insulation I fitted. I almost made holes in the walls so that he could see it but then that would only prove that part of that wall was insulated. I'd have holes everywhere!
Fortunately nobody seems to attache any importance to what is a pointless and misleading exercise when applied to houses built before Building Regs.
When I was insulating walls and roof on our new house the Building inspector didn't want to see it. The assesor told me that it would be assesed on the Building Regs current when it was constructed. Who knows if the insulation is there or not? It may have been fitted badly. In fact I've gone way above what's required but there's no certificate so it's not there. I've taken photos but a photo can be manipulated.
The best way to ascertain the energy consumption of a building is to look at the bills. The best way to calculate heat loss is to measure thermal radiation on the outside.
EPC's have more to do with job creation than energy saving.
The assessor has to satisfy themself that the insulation is present, and make a record on the site notes of how they justified including it. An insualtion certificate will do, but other ways are to measure the wall thickness and comparing it to the external brick sizes (a standard brick is circa 220mm) , tapping the areas which are insulated to listen for a more hollow sound than a thud, looking at detailing around window frames/skirtings, having a look inside electric fittings (although not recommended by anyone it would be my method of last resort) . This is the result of poor training not the whole EPC regime!
More importantly - if you told them it was there, and didn't just hope it was spotted, they should have spent more time investigating. Not just told you no certificate no points!!! Grrr.
Getting you insulation recognised will add 5 - 15 SAP points (if it's most of the house).
The ceiling will be harder to get recognition for.
How many rads vs stoves do you have. If you give me more details you might be able to argue wood heating as your primary heating (and wood is the cheapest fuel according to SAP). If the larger proportion of your house is heated by stove then you can therotically ignore the presence of radiators or down grade them to secondary heating. Why? Becuase most people given the choice will use the cheapest heating first! But most energy assessors won't remember (or even know that!). Again the rules are if you make good site notes of why you choose it, then you are usually right. I'd be looking for a large wood pile, making sure there is evidence the fires have been in use (espeically if it was recently) and that more than 50% of the house can be heated by the stoves.
PS Energy bills are still no good - they are an assessment of YOUR energy consumption - not the average. Someone else might be in 24x7 and need the house at 24 deg C due to respiratory problems. Conversely the home for sale could be due to the fact you emigrated 6 months ago. Which is why a thermal model is done. You can still show a potential buyer your bills though - to show what's possible VS the EPC. ;-)
What you've desribed makes me want to re-accredit spefically to deal with more complex properties, but the money isn't as good as IT!.
Simon
The assessor has to satisfy themself that the insulation is present, and make a record on the site notes of how they justified including it.
That doesn't seem to be happening for HIPs.. A friend of mine is house hunting and reports that the energy survey in almost all the HIPs he's seen so far have been a waste of time. He says they never seem to know if there is cavity wall insulation or not and frequently give two figures. As this is pretty fundamental why isn't it mandatory for the surveyor to find out by visual inspection with a boroscope if the owner can't prove it?
Your friend must be misunderstanding the report. There are two figures - one which lists the house as is. I.e. No cavity insulation. The "potential figure" which is the other one shows how much of a saving you'd make if you put it in, there's no means for an assesor to say "it might be there".
You don't need to use a boroscope to spot it - you can looks for a) regular drill holes b) fluff or beads inside the meter box c) around waste pipes d) in the attic at the eaves (With a little dentists mirror thingy) e) Best of all - a CIGA 25 year guarantee certificate.
Part of the requirements for HIP was not to have intrusive testing as part of the requirement as people would be even more p'd off.
PS If anyone has problems with EPCs I'm very interested as I'm involved with a volunteer group that has a seat on the EPC stakeholder group with CLG. So I'm partly responsible for trying to make EPC's a success.
Thank you for the interesting response.
Wall thickness varies in the range 650mm to 1200mm. All are stone. All the insulated walls sound hollow but that does not mean there's insulation. Could just be a serious case of detached lime plaster! Nothing to be seen at any reveals or soffits and it's impossible to see through an electrical box. Anyway, who would be responsible for removing the front now that we have laws to stop us doing electrical work?
I told the assessor about the insulation specifics but how can I demonstrate 50mm of polystyrene under the slate floor slabs without taking one up and cutting the DPM. Even using a fibre optic camera would mean making holes all over the place.
The heating system is not conventional. There's a 14kw woodstove surrounded by a pile of bricks and the room has massive internal walls. It doesn't have a radiator. The stove burns for 5 hours daily for six months and the warm air circulates through the rooms we use by convection.Temperature never goes below 15c but this is only the rooms we use. There is an obvious big woodstore which presently contains 6 tons and I told the assesor wood is our major heat source.
I understand the problem the assesor had with this house and I don't think he failed to do what is expected of him. He did make some descriptive errors, confusing double and secondary glazing and getting the construction material wrong but then that's probaly the constraints of the software he uses. If I thought it would change anything I'd complain.
Ive bought an Infra red thermometer with a laser pointer, only £17.00 odd. I can identify walls which are insulated by their surface temperature. I can demonstrate the effectiveness of the secondary glazing. The two panes have very different surface temps. On the outside I think I can see a difference between insulated and uninsulated areas. The slate slab floor with polystyrene under is 16.2c the adjacent floor without is 13.6c
Is this a way to confirm the prescence of insulation?
Thing is..... You get what you pay for. How much did the EPC cost you?
Yeah an assessor should take more time and consideration and use common sense and discretion. However, remember anyone can do this course relatively easily. You don’t have to spend years in training/university. Its a few hours basically. When an average EPC costs around £50 and a building survey around £1000 then this suggestes the depths that the assessor will go to. A mortgage valuation costs around £250 and there often just "drive by's"
The prices DEA's are being paid on average work out around £32. They get around £40 per EPC, after tax, accreditation fees and lodgement fees they get around £32, then you take the time, petrol etc to get there and do it. Then you’ve got to put it into the software at home (can take upto about an hour if complicated).
All in all, there is no incentive for the DEA, they get treated like rubbish, laughed at on places like this, moaned at by owners and walked all over by the training providers and accreditation schemes.
The ONLY winners in this are the training providers that missell this to hopeful people that dream of a change of career. They have saturated the market so everyone’s running around trying to do as many as they can for a few quid each. Then the Accreditation schemes, cream of more money from each survey they do for using their software.
There really is no money in this whatsoever for probably 99% of trained DEA's.
I’m sure they would like to take more time and pride in their work but they don’t get paid for that so they just have to do as many as possible to try and make a living.
I’m a DEA but its not my job, just part of my development (building surveyor) I honestly feel sorry for these people that gave up jobs etc and paid ££££ for a change in career but were ultimately ripped off.
The government have so much to answer for the shambles that saw this introduced, as I say only winners are the pathetic training providers. The joke trading as 'property professionals' springs to mind, they should have been regulated tightly.
Passive House Design, Zero Carbon Homes
This EPC thread is a real downer.
Reading between the lines ….… in principle I agree
It the (not too distant) future a low scoring home will either
1, Require improvement by the seller – if possible
2, Require a commitment to improve it by the buyer (paying less for it).
Well informed buyers must already be putting pressure on price with low EPC ratings – I know I would.
This all falls-over if the EPC does not reflect the true state of the property.
No one likes red tape HIPs EPC, Building control etc and paying for the privilege at gun-point.
They are VITAL to ensure quality, providing they are implemented properly and preferably with sensible enforcement. While no one wants to shell out for red-tape, I would prefer to pay a little bit more for a quality job.
Filling in a ‘short form’ to populate 100 or so cells with default figures is valid and quick, providing it is used as the stating point not the end point.
What is the point in me/anyone doing any improvements to any property if they are not going to be reflected in the EPC when dwelling is sold!
My SAP2005 spreadsheet, as built = 13, current = 48, planned improvements = 70+
According to my initial costing getting from 48 to 70+ will/would have cost in the region of £15,000 DIY. Additional £4,000 for PV taking it to 80ish maybe, but unlikely.
Only a fraction of the work is cost effective in less than 10 years – at DIY prices. But……. if you factor in my £200,000 house now only being worth £180,000 due to a poor rating then the sums look a bit different. This even makes the PV look a bit more reasonable.
I am an engineer and at the end of my contract am/was planning on taking ‘time-out’ to totally refurbish the whole house, total rip-out etc. This is the only sure-fire way of guaranteeing quality. I have worked out how-to DIY an air-infiltration check/tracer to be utilised one room at a time as I do them, it would/will end up being one of the tightest buildings around. I will enjoy doing the work, but I could just as easily go to work and save the cash.
My motivations are mostly for improved comfort with, ‘green’, savings on bills and getting the best ‘bang for my buck’ the bias changes daily. I will make use of all available technology and will choose greener materials if appropriate. Sorry.. but sheep’s wool in the loft just does not do it for me when an equivalent amount spent on rock wool will be far superior and maybe ‘greener’ long term. Moving insulation from A to B uses fuel but not very much due to its density or lack of it. How big a pile would 100Kg of Aerogel be?
I could ‘plug’ the numbers into my SAP spreadsheet in 5mins top’s, especially for a similar detached house, 5 different wall types.. easy, 3 main fuel types.. no problem….ahhh but it is not “official or certified” … more jobs getting in on the act all in the name of conformity… mine will be more accurate and has all of the supporting calculations which can be printed if needed to justify the final score! The devil is in the detail not a simple eco badge like my fridge. Yes, I know SAP2005 has been superseded but the last time I looked EPC was still based on SAP2005.
When time comes to sell, I will be sending the EPC assessor my calculations and he/she had better do a good job else the smelly stuff will be hitting the fan. This presupposes I haven’t already ‘left the building’ in a narrow wooden box.
I’m not a complete SAP nerd, my philosophy is “Gather facts – acquire wisdom from the experienced – make an informed judgement – act”. It’s a tool that performs a task and is informative – even if it has a few flaws (it has). All of this is work in progress, everyone is playing catch-up architects, builder’s planners and Joe public but at least the journey has begun.
In 10 years .. System houses may be the answer.. flatten the old pile and build anew .. 2 weeks start to finish.
Please someone – reassure me that EPC’s are worthwhile.
John
As as a DEA, I understand your concerns I think. However please understand that the Energy Assessment for the EPC is meant to be non invasive. No drilling walls, or lifting boards.
If they can see it , they measure it or count them. If not, default values apply.
Renewables are not catered for properly in RdSAP, but remember it is called 'Reduced data' for a reason.
Cheers....:smile:
I just heard they are "refactoring" the EPBD - the EU Energy Performance Of Buildings directive that covers the implementation of EPCs. Bascially EPBD 2.0.
Most likely a new EU wide testing regime will be introduced to make it consistent across all member states. So we could see the end of SAP based EPCs, or maybe it's adoption across the whole EU!?
Personally I think it has outgrown it's original use to estimate average building energy use, for building regs approval. We now need software which is more intelligent and can illustrate differing user scenarios.
If we need to get people to consider updating houses to passive house levels of insulation we need to start by throwing RDSAP in the bin.
I know there was some work done on allowing assessors to be able to call up the data for previous EPCs from the central register (so as to not have to redo one from scratch). It seems logical that a central repository is kept for any house so that a later extension or upgrade means that just a bit of new data needs entering - not the whole lot. Keeps costs down.
Posted By: john_gWhen time comes to sell, I will be sending the EPC assessor my calculations and he/she had better do a good job
Unfortunately it won't be the assessors fault you get a low score - it will be the way the system is set up. Existing houses don't get the full SAP 2005 treatment - but RDSAP which as I mentioned should be put in the bin! It's impossible to make an old house as good as a new one as you can't override air leakage rates or Wall U Values. Maybe EPBD 2.0 will solve this!
Simon
This has definitely skewed my thinking toward 'visible' evidence like solar, loft insulation etc, (assuming they venture up a loft ladder and the RDSAP is capable) and puts 'invisible' insulation out of the equation, until another viable solution comes in! :confused:
No matter what evidence I can produce my walls will be 2.1 regardless – far from encouraging.
Other than howling gaps infiltration is not worth expending too much time and effort if door infiltration test is a no-no on RDSAP.
No doubt drafts and wall insulation are still included in 'recommended' list - damn cheek if they do.:devil:
Didn’t fancy scrabbling around under the suspended floor void to update the pipe insulation anyway!
Maybe removable insulation would be an answer…. if it isn’t going to count why leave them behind.
50 or 70mm PIR/PUR covered in curtain fabric, vinyl, floor covering etc (blue-peter style), with simple fixing to wall (fire regs) and NO decorating. Bonus, they are decoration so NO building control. I would have lower bills and could take them with me when I moved. …This would work a treat in two of my rooms…. The little lady might take some persuading….. :wink:
This was intended to be a bit tongue-in-cheek, but, Hmmm.. It’s a solution to the inadequacies of the system.
You have saved me about £1500 on insulation alone not to mention the plasterboard labour … BIG thanks.
Had a search around for EPBD 2.0, but could not find anything definitive. Google has its limitations on ‘techie’ stuff.
John